Countdown to opening day 2011

[Biggin]

Read this:

Just a Reminder: Baseball Players Have Always Cheated -- MLB FanHouse

better yet, ill just post it.

In my continuing crusade to knock Americans -- particularly my Hall-of-Fame-voting colleagues -- off their moral high horses when it comes to steroids, I wanted to point out an op-ed piece that ran over the weekend in the New York Times.

Zev Chafets, author of an upcoming book about the Hall of Fame, reminds us that baseball players have been using performance-enhancing drugs for a long time.

In 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench. It came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a quack who injected Mantle with a home-brew containing steroids and speed. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted once taking an amphetamine tablet during a game. The Pirates' John Milner testified at a drug dealer's trial that his teammate, Willie Mays, kept "red juice," a liquid form of speed, in his locker. (Mays denied it.) After he retired, Sandy Koufax admitted the he was often "half high" on the mound from the drugs he took for his ailing left arm.

For decades, baseball beat writers - the Hall of Fame's designated electoral college - shielded the players from scrutiny. When the Internet (and expos?s by two former ballplayers, Jim Bouton and Jose Canseco) allowed fans to see what was really happening, the baseball writers were revealed as dupes or stooges. In a rage, they formed a posse to drive the drug users out of the game.

So right there you've got Mantle, Aaron, Mays and Koufax all connected to some sort of performance-enhancing chemical. Maybe their stuff didn't work as well as the stuff the players of the 21st century have at their disposal, but does that make them innocent and today's players guilty?

You can also argue that we have only snippets of alleged "one-time" use when it comes to these old-timers. Of course, what would we say if a current player said he used steroids "only once"? Also, the evidence against the old-timers is flimsy because back then no one was looking for it.

What that tells me that baseball players have been trained since the dawn of time to do whatever they could get away with if they thought it would help them perform

Let's not forget what Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt told Bob Costas in 2005:

"Let me go out on a limb and say that if I had played during that era I would have taken steroids. ... We all have these things we deal with in life, and I'm surely not going to sit here and say to you guys, 'I wouldn't have done that.'

(Schmidt wrote later in his autobiography that he thinks he wouldn't have taken steroids, but he understood why players did.)

The point to all of this is not to excuse the steroid users. What they did was wrong. The point is just to keep a little perspective on the atmosphere in which they did it. Let's put away the torches and pitchforks.

[Biggin]

You are viewed in comparison to the era in which you played and the rules that were used in your era. I don't think you understand that "doctoring" the baseball was legal at one point. The steroid users of the 1990's and 2000's broke the rules of their day.

So did Gaylord Perry/Whitey Ford.



Plus the fact that baseball has only started mandatory drug testing in 2002!!!!!! If they arent testing everybody, how can you say baseball really wanted to stop cheaters?

Baseball players were using performance-enhancing drugs over ONE HUNDRED years ago, testosterone supplements. Plus that no rules at all were outlined about PED use until 1971 at the absolute earliest (1991 is more accurate), how can you keep Bonds out, when we have no idea if Mays or Mantle juiced? Theres evidence to suggest that both used PEDs

[pvfan]

Who would you put?

Ted Williams?

What did Ted ever do that was better than Bonds, considering the era?

Williams had a higher average, Bonds had better power

Williams lost four seasons due to serving in the war. In the two seasons prior to his service he led the league in home runs and had already accumulated 127 home runs at the age of 23! He had also already hit over .400 in his early 20's. When you take into account that ballparks were much larger in his day it's not hard to fathom Williams hitting well over 600 home runs. Also, the league had not yet expanded making the level of play much higher overall. Generally speaking, you had to be better back then to make it to the show than you do now. Williams led the American League in batting average, on base percentage, slugging, and on base plus slugging in the same season five times. Ted Williams is by far the greatest hitter that ever lived and it's not debatable.

[pvfan]

So did Gaylord Perry/Whitey Ford.

Using a spitball and steroids is night and day in my opinion. it was pretty much accepted forever in the game. At one time the only penalty was a fine. The league even allowed every team to carry a specific number of spitballers for a while.

[Biggin]

Williams lost four seasons due to serving in the war. In the two seasons prior to his service he led the league in home runs and had already accumulated 127 home runs at the age of 23! He had also already hit over .400 in his early 20's. When you take into account that ballparks were much larger in his day it's not hard to fathom Williams hitting well over 600 home runs. Also, the league had not yet expanded making the level of play much higher overall. Generally speaking, you had to be better back then to make it to the show than you do now. Williams led the American League in batting average, on base percentage, slugging, and on base plus slugging in the same season five times. Ted Williams is by far the greatest hitter that ever lived and it's not debatable.

Thats silly. To say that pitchers were better on the whole back then is laughable. With modern advancements in training technique, strength and conditioning, and the overall level of talent in modern baseball, pitchers now, on the average>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pitchers in Williams' era.

Williams hit 127 in his first four years; Bonds had 101, not that far behind.

Im not doubting how great Williams is, but to suggest that Bonds is not in that status is BS

[pvfan]

Thats silly. To say that pitchers were better on the whole back then is laughable. With modern advancements in training technique, strength and conditioning, and the overall level of talent in modern baseball, pitchers now, on the average>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pitchers in Williams' era.

Williams hit 127 in his first four years; Bonds had 101, not that far behind.

Im not doubting how great Williams is, but to suggest that Bonds is not in that status is BS

Pitchers today are better in my opinion. I was using his era when the league had larger parks and fewer teams.

[pvfan]

You think stealing a sign at second base is the same as using steroids.

[pvfan]

Williams hit 127 in his first four years; Bonds had 101, not that far behind.

I give up, you are right. Williams was only 26 home runs ahead of the all time record holder at the same age playing in bigger ballparks and without steroids.

[Biggin]

Using a spitball and steroids is night and day in my opinion. it was pretty much accepted forever in the game. At one time the only penalty was a fine. The league even allowed every team to carry a specific number of spitballers for a while.

And steroids were pretty much accepted until the mid 2000s with comprehensive testing and such.

There were no drug testing until the 90s, so its ok that Bonds did it because it was not tested for at one point?

Thats what you are saying with spitballs, because it was not stopped at one points means its okay to do it at a later point even after the rules have changed.

[pvfan]

We are talking about getting ejected from a baseball game and going to jail. Are those the same?